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Interview Podcast Audio Dr. Cornel West - Never Forget

Cornel West makes music?

That's the reaction of many a hip-hop fan when hearing that the acclaimed Princeton professor's new album, Never Forget--his third studio foray into the music game--features the likes of Prince, Andre 3000, Jill Scott, Talib Kweli, Black Thought, Gerald Levert, KRS-One, among others.

But while West has been a pillar of the academic and intellectual communities for the better part of three decades, he's no stranger to the using entertainment as a medium for his message of equality. West had a role as Councilor West in two of the three Matrix films, dropping the memorable line, "comprehension is not a requisite of cooperation," and also appeared on Gerald Levert's 2004 album, Do I Speak to the World.

Never Forget is no different. Over bumping hip-hop beats and woven between verses from talented lyricists are West's spoken-word-style diatribes on criminal justice, prejudice, negligent government, and invasion of civil liberties.

West spoke with MP3.com about all that, and also why the battle for the airwaves between quality music and the lowest common denominator could be a long one.

MP3.com: Dr. West? Dr. Cornel West: Yes, brother, Jim, Cornel, how are you doing there? I'm very well. How are you, sir? I just deeply appreciate you taking this time and having me, I tell you that. Ah, we appreciate it very much as well. So let's start talking about the process of recording your new album, Never Forget. You and your band, Black Men Who Mean Business, took more of a jazz and R&B approach on the first two records you guys did. Did you have a relationship with a lot of the emcees and singers that you sought out this time around? Yes, I was blessed to have brother Mike Dailey and my blood brother, Cliff West, who was part of our group, say, 'Well let's just go for some of towering figures, some of those who have been out a long time and have an immediate impact,' and I started with brother Prince.

I've known Prince now for over five years or so and we've had dialogues. I've been to Paisley Park, of course, and so forth. And when he said yeah and when he put on the green light I said, "Good God," because as you know Prince doesn't allow any of his music to be used for hip-hop samples. Absolutely. And so when he said yes, I said, "My God, my God, this brother is showing deep, deep love." OK. And my love for him is such that I said we're going to also look at some other towering folk who sustain that high level. So we went to Gerald Levert. I had been on his album, Do I Speak to the World. He jumped right back right away and said absolutely. And this is, of course, one of the last things he did before his premature death. That's right. And then when we thought about hip-hop, we said, 'Well, we want KRS-One.' KRS-One has been lecturing in my classes since 1989. And he and I had done some things in Paris together talking about hip-hop and reflecting on hip-hop culture. So he was quite supportive.

But then when Talib Kweli came in and M-1 [of Dead Prez] did "Prayers." I had never met them, I had just been great admirers of them. And then when Black Thought and Rah Digga, and of course Andre 3000 also came to Princeton and he and I lectured together. Oh, really? Interesting. Yeah, that was about three years ago. And he responded just so lovingly as well. So when you put all of that together, and then you had Jill Scott, I mean, good God, what more can you say. And Lenny Williams, you don't get a better falsetto, you've got to go back there to [Eddie] Kendricks to find somebody on the same level as Lenny Williams.

And so you have that kind of combination of unbelievable talent all trying to be a force of good and trying to keep alive the rich legacy of black music and it's always trying to fuse the spiritual and social, the personal and the political. I figured now we've got to give to the world. Absolutely. Well the result is fantastic. I've been listening to it the last couple of days and you should be really proud of it. Oh, I appreciate that, young man. Now you caught some flak when you first began putting out albums of music when you were at Harvard. And that was partly attributed to your move from Harvard to Princeton. Talk about academia's warming to hip-hop over the past decade or so. It seems like more classes are popping up on college campuses related to hip-hop and that kind of thing. Well absolutely. I mean, universities are supposed to be sites that are involved in the quest for truth, small "t" and knowledge, small "k." You really can't talk about a quest for truth and knowledge without understanding hip-hop as probably the most significant cultural phenomena especially among young people in the last 30 years, not just here but around the world. And given that, the academy sooner or later had to come to terms with it.

Now my controversy with President Larry Summers in part had to do with the fact that for him hip-hop was an embarrassment. Harvard professors are not having any relations with it and so forth and so on. And he's entitled to his opinions. He has a right to be wrong, you know what I mean? Sure. And at the same time I'm saying, well my text, I've written 17 texts, I edited 13. They all present a kind of readable education but my CDs present a danceable education, a kind of singing Paideia, that really has to do with deep education, deep forms of cultivation and formation so that you're really taking on the crucial issues of the day. And when I listen to Common, that's what I hear. You see, when I listen to Paris, when I listen to Chuck D, when I listen to towering hip-hop figures who are wrestling with the issues of the day, they are involved in a danceable education. Absolutely. And as you know, the challenge in some ways has to do with the radio stations, though, brother, because you've got 50 Cent and you've got Game and you've got Nelly and others who are towering artists in their own way, brother Snoop, towering artists in their own way. But a lot of these radio stations are suspicious of what they call message music and so they don't really want to go too far in terms of truth telling and lie exposing. And they say, "Well, you know, I ain't got nothing against brother 50," but at the same time, he's got messages too. Of course. And so the question that comes up is will there be space for a variety of different voices and viewpoints in hip-hop on the radio. This is a real challenge. It certainly is. Speaking of the dominant voice in hip-hop, was the debate that arose after the Don Imus comments productive? Do you feel like that was a productive debate or was it just a more of a cultural zeitgeist-type situation where the media flocks to it for a couple weeks and then we move on? Yes, that's a good question, because on the one hand you've got symbolic and on the other hand you've got institutional levels. And the symbolic levels are a kind of cultural catharsis. Everybody trashes Imus and trashes Snoop and then moves on to the next issue or set of issues, whereas institutional is we stop, think, reflect and say, "How are we going to come to terms with misogyny? How are we going to come to terms with homophobia? How are we going to come to terms with xenophobia and whatever forms of bigotry and hatred and loathing that are out there?" And I don't think we've had that long, sustained attention. We had a brief reflection and discussion but we haven't had that sustained attention so that produces the kind of institutional changes. You know what I mean? Yep. That's the kind of institutional change because young people are really hungry and thirsty for something substantive but too often times the industry just gives them a certain kind of bubblegum, cotton candy music rather than the rib-grabbing music. And for me the legacy and the spirit of Curtis Mayfield is what this CD in part is all about. Curtis Mayfield always gave you something for your ribs. He didn't give you no popcorn and bubblegum or cotton candy. I wanted to ask you about that as well. In your opinion, has the lowest common denominator always played so much of a role in popular music as it does today? We've always had the lowest common denominator but we had spaces, we had room for high-quality and substance, whereas today a Curtis Mayfield, Smokey Robinson, or Stevie Wonder, if they were just breaking in, the people would be looking for one hit, they wouldn't be looking for an album. So we'd never get What's Going On by Marvin [Gaye], we'd never get Songs in the Key of Life by Stevie [Wonder], let alone the great Sly [Stone] himself, who was never just about singles but always had overarching visions of the various albums that he put out, even given the genius of his singles. Right. So it's a different kind of industry today, it really is. And it's a tremendous challenge for those who are fundamentally committed to high-quality music. It seems like there are huge issues that stand in the way of the subjects you address, meaning corporate homogeny and a very money-laden political structure. Those things seem to get in the way of addressing issues like misogyny and homophobia and racial stereotypes and those sorts of things. Can we fix the smaller stuff without movement in those bigger areas? They're tied together. Right, like if radio stations that are owned by major corporations are only going to be willing to play the lowest common denominator, how do you break through and that kind of thing. On the one hand you've got to chip away and try to create new spaces or gain access to those big spaces that are critical of the dominant forces that shape the big spaces or you just, also, have to become part of a political movement that goes beyond the music because the music is indispensable but it's one fundamental moment within a larger comprehensive project that has to include organization and mobilization to really talk seriously about fundamental social change when it comes to corporate power as a whole, when it comes to corporate-influenced politics, or I should say politics disproportionately influenced by corporate power. Definitely. You seem like someone who has a very persistent engine in terms of you're always able to continue discussing these things and keeping them in the forefront and all of this. Do you ever lose hope yourself? Well I wrestle with despair. It's certainly true that he or she who has never despaired has never lived. Sure. And so you wrestle with despair. There is no such thing as hope without the wrestling with despair, almost like Jacob in the 32nd Chapter of Genesis, wrestling with the Angel of Death in the midnight hour. And so in that sense the wrestling is part and parcel of who I am. But I try not to allow despair to have the last word. Of course. That's the thing about it. But in a certain sense, the depth and quality of your hope has to do with the length of your wrestling with despair. There is no such thing as hope that's not wrestling with despair and, therefore, we all have our dark moments and all have our down moments. But when you bounce back, you're stronger. And I've been blessed to live a life of bounce back, my brother. Absolutely. I wanted to ask you, you mention Matthew 25 in the song you did with Prince, "Dear Mr. Man." That's right. In your opinion, was the mishandling of the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina a product of racism or was it just classism or was it a combination of the two as well as just bad government? Well I think it had to do with the fact that a black life doesn't have the same value as a white life, which is racism or white supremacy. It had to do with class because a poor person's life doesn't have the same value as an elite person's life. That's very much a class issue. I think it even is partly region too, though, brother. I think if it had hit New England as opposed to the South that there is almost a sense in which a life in Maine on the shore that is both white and well to do has more value than a Southern life all the way down in funky Louisiana, you know. Right. You've got three different things going on but all of them are wrong, unfair, vicious, and need to be rejected because I think all of us ought to proceed on the notion that all of our lives have equal value, I don't care what color, I don't care what sexual orientation, I don't care what gender. For sure. So the last thing I wanted to ask you is you have, at this point, you have three solo albums to your credit. You have appearances on other records. We saw you as Councilor West of Zion in a few Matrix movies. [Laughs.] Oh, you're gonna go there, huh? That's right. Aside from your teaching duties and writing books, both of which seem to be full-time gigs unto themselves, what's next for you in the world of multimedia or entertainment and those sorts of things? Are you going to keep going in this direction for a while? Brother, I'm going to use every form of intellectual and cultural weaponry and every media and all to try to be a force of good and to leave a blow for justice before I leave. As you should, as you should. I've got more CDs planned. We're talking with George Clinton and Common and Christian Scott and some other folk for the next project. It's always onto the next one, my brother. There's always more to do because the needs are overwhelming and the people's needs are holy. Absolutely. Well keep them coming. That's all I can say. Well I deeply appreciate your time and you continue to be the force for good that you are there, brother. Thank you very much. Take care. Have a good one. Thanks, Dr. West. All right. Bye-bye.